Good intentions and a dime will get you a cup of coffee.

(Actually I think he stole it from Woody Allen. Anyway....)

While I loathed to hear those words come out of his mouth when I was a kid, I somehow knew that they were true.

And they still are.

I, too, share Greg's utopian vision of what the world should be like.

But it's not.

It's really, really not.

There are systems of privilege that have been going for a whole lot longer than I've been around. And those things don't just change from good intentions.

Proposition 209 was a crock of shit advanced by people who'd like to see the colored bathrooms back. It was a lie and a sham.

I voted no.

derek m. powazek

Robin Miller {roblimo@primenet.com}

As a young child, I spent one to two days a week with my grandparents, who lived in a primarily African American neighborhood on the West Side of Milwaukee. My grandmother used to keep a huge box of candy in the kitchen for the neighborhood kids. She loved the kids, and would pay them for doing tasks for her -- counting things, running errands, helping out other neighbors. She would invite the kids inside, even against my grandfather's objections. She explained to me that my grandfather was racist, and that racism was wrong. That all kids were the same regardless of skin color. I thought my grandfather was stupid in this way, even though he was a wonderful doctor, musician and magician. I thought my grandmother was obviously right. And I learned that even my own grandfather could be stupid like this. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I was, maybe, 5.

I could not ever imagine voting for anything like proposition 209. Racism is everywhere. It infects everything. As does sexism. We do not operate on an equal playing field, because people are treated differently according to race, even though individuals may not see this in themselves.

I am not a cynic for believing this. I am a pragmatist. And I also am an idealist. Because I believe that if all people could be given equal opportunities, all people could succeed. And we do not have equal opportunities, thanks to the stupid people who do not want to let the black kids in the house.

These house-havers are not going to change by their own free will. They must be forced.

I do not view the people who voted for 209 in clean conscience as "idealist." I view them as blind.

And honestly, I hold them accountable.

rebecca l. eisenberg {mars@well.com}

i didn't vote this year. to many of you, this probably automatically means that i have no right to be posting here.

to hell with that idea. i still think i have every right to say something about the issue. as for me, i have no problem with saying that i would have voted for 209.

why? simple for me. many people are eager to call it a conspiracy to perpetuate racism further... a push toward segregation. i can't see it as anything like this, and i'll tell you why.

i've been brought up in a world world my parents never knew. this has been a world of unspoken quotas, unfair advantages and biased hiring practices. i had thought when i was younger (18, 19) that the person hired in front of me, by default, was the one with more experience or a better education. thoughts like this were adopted without question in my head. i had been taught by teachers my whole life that racism was wrong. there was always implied racism in my household, just never discussed or openly admitted to by my family members. i have always made every attempt to look at people equally regardless of color or ethnic background. normally my world operates in this manner. i, like most people, have the occasional negative feelings toward those who would shove their values, thoughts, culture or religion down my throat. this is unavoidable. i had always been for affirmative action...

then i began my current job over four years ago. my thoughts on this matter have changed over the past four years due to two people i have seen hired at my place of employment. these two people could not possibly have been hired due to their capabilities, since they both have demonstrated an extreme inability to perform the work specified in the positions of their job descriptions.

the woman is working in the optical microscopy division of my place of employment. the requirements of this position involve working under a microscope most of the workday, removing extremely small items from a slide (often less than 30um in size) and mounting them on a sample loading vessel for analysis.

the woman's eyesight is so bad that her glasses are coke-bottle thick. she misses her sample on the average of 50% of the time.

purely unacceptable, but hey, she's a minority. forget about the fact that she can't perform the job up to specification due to her sight limitations. this falls along the same lines as someone who is blind but wants a drivers' license.

the other employee... minimum requirements for education were an AS degree in a scientific related discipline. he fell at least one year short of the degree requirement...

the man is completely incapable of following any instructions given. he is constantly performing little unauthorized experiments on company time that are meant to be attempts on "improving" current procedures in the laboratory. most have backfired with disasterous results. his jumping the gun on procedures has, to date, cost the laboratory over $20,000 in lost employee labor time and damaged equipment.

when threatened with disciplinary action, he cries racism and threatens legal action.

enough of my ranting. in both cases, there were several applicants who were easily more qualified for these positions. unfortunately, because the minority applicants both were considered "close enough" in the qualifying criteria, they won the jobs available.

i'm glad 209 passed. i consider affirmative action to be something martin luther king jr. would have frowned upon if he were alive today to see what it has created.

greg {vector@netgate.net}

Has anything really changed?

The first judgment, the pre-judgment, the prejudice many of us make - me included - is based on what we see and we do not take the time to listen or to speak. We settle in our very fast lives for the surface of things and think that our beliefs are universally true. That what we believe is what everyone should believe. That we are right.

"Life is not fair." No shit. So what's wrong with trying to make it fair? I am, if you haven't gathered by now, a cynic. I believe that history has shown time and time again that humankind will take the darker road because it is easier and it promises simple answers rather than challenging ourselves to really make things better. To listen to what the enlightened say and not twist it to our own ends. To think of each other as human beings, all stuck in this thing together.

Have those Republican Dreams of a land of fairplay if you will, but if we are unwilling to help each other voluntarily, maybe we need somebody to stick us in the ass to do so.

Lance {are.the.jokes.still.funny@glassdog.com}

i'm a white guy, which probably makes it easier to be, or attempt to be, an idealist. it makes it easier to say "yes, i know that all people are equal" but something happened to me when i was younger that makes me wonder if what i want to believe is what i actually believe. whether what i know to be right and just conflicts with the emotional part of my reasoning process.

i was very young when my mom became a single mom. it was the mid '70s, and without a college degree it was not easy for her to make a lot of money. i didn't know it then, because kids aren't aware of these things, but we were poor. dirt poor.

for a time, we lived in a neighborhood called brannon heights. i didn't know it at the time, because kids aren't aware of stuff like this, but it was a slum. we were the only white folks in a neighborhood of very low income people, mostly african- and native-americans. we were discriminated against.

people didn't try to hide the fact that they wished we weren't there. more than once our house was broken into. usually nothing was missing, except the contents of mom's tip-jar (she was a waitress at the time).

there were kids my age on the block, and they were my friends. we played together. but some of their parents didn't like that. really didn't like that. i didn't understand it at all. there was this one time that one of my friends and i went somewhere with mom, and when we got back his parents weren't around. mom didn't know what to do, so he spent the night with us. the next day, when they showed up, they were truly freaked out that their son had spent the night at our place.

it made no sense to me, the attitude of the neighborhood towards us, but it made me afraid.

we didn't stay in that neighborhood very long. now, i'm much older and i understand what was going on. but the whole experience left me with an unreasonable, unrational and completely wrong headed fear of black people. my head knows it's wrong and stupid. my gut still reacts negatively. i hate it.

so that makes it more difficult to be an idealist. but maybe that's why i so want to be an idealist. i really don't want to be a bigot or a racist. but i worry that maybe i am. i honestly can't tell if my desire to be an idealist and my belief that it doesn't matter what you believe so long as you treat people justly may all be a complex rationalization designed so that i can live with myself. i hope not.

so would i have voted for prop 209? yeah, probably. but i don't know if i'd have voted that way because it's the right thing to do or because i want so desperately to believe i'm a good person. i do want to believe that society can get by and give everyone an equal shot at life without programs like affirmative action. i think that would be great. i know we're not there now, but i want us to be. i believe we can be. i just don't know if we can get there while such programs still exist.

cloister bell {cloister@hhhh.org}

It depends.

I really don't have any clue how I would have voted if I could have voted for Proposition 209. I haven't been able to settle on an argument that I agree with yet. In some moods I would vote yes, in others no.

It depends.

kris {kerupp@bsuvc.bsu.edu}

Cynicism or optimism? Degradation, segregation? Equal rights? Truth? Fiction?

I suppose it all depends on points of view... Does tipping the scales to favor minorities push equality? Does this new bious correct the old one? Do two wrongs make a right? Does the search for balance push unfairness?

I don't know how I might have voted (if I were from California).

Remi {erd3515@umoncton.ca}

Susan Paulsen {netgrl@cinti.net}

As for racism? Its very real, in hiring, the workplace, in every aspect of american life. Ten years ago I had a freind from Yugoslavia who was always telling me the US was the most rascist country in the world. I didn't agree with him at the time. Now I think I do. As for my being a cynic or idealist? I don't know. Is anybody ever completely one or the other?

dave {nox5553@montana.com}

"...gotta free your mind instead..."

Bernie {bre@fauxhall.com}

To me what's important is , that someday we can look at each other with a feeling of mutual respect and trust.

I think that one way to acheive that , is to be on a level playing field. We have been in control of this country since its birth. Imagine getting up in the morning and seeing a black president, a black man or woman owning every major business in the country. Not a bad thought, I'm not trying to portray it as such...

I'm just trying to imagine what it has been like for every African-American man, woman, and child in this country , day after day.

I could never fully understand. I just think that we need to create a level playing field.....once that is done and the power is distributed as equally as possible, maybe then we can look at each other with trust and respect.

Forgive me if what I've written is neither carefully prepared or well written, it's just the way I feel

Thanks

Rob Burnside

Reward and punishment based on character and ability, not on race, color, sex, etc. - I think that's the best way to punish the bigoted and reward the appropriate individuals of a minority.

I suggest that affirmative action is as likely to defeat the purpose - that of making a better society - as it is to do good.

At least when an anglo-saxon male screws up at work he gets fired without the "racism!" defense... he isn't kept tagged on for fear of said defence, but only if, as anyone, he might deserve a second chance.

kev {kls@oanet.com}

If I'm white and live in a black neighborhood where violence runs rampant and no one takes care of their property I'm not going to have a good impression of blacks. If I live in a black neighborhood where things are just the opposite I will tend to have a more open view. Yes, Virginia, black neighborhood where things are quiet, safe, and well-tended DO exist. Just as all-white neighborhoods filled with "white trash" exist.

So are quotas and hiring practices that favor minorities wrong or right? Depends on one's personal experience, I suppose. If someone unqualified gets hired because of skin color, who is the bad guy? The law? The employee? Neither. The company or person who did the hiring is at fault. There are PLENTY of minorities out there that have degrees and who are talented in their own right. Why can't companies find them? Who said hiring talent was supposed to be easy? A boss wouldn't think twice about hiring a white guy at a top salary and then doing everything he can to hold on to the guy. But for a position that has to be filled by a minority he won't take the trouble.

OK, now on to idealism. I agree that IDEALLY we shouldn't need quotas or forced hiring practices. But we have to achieve that "critical mass" point where people have an opportunity to EXPERIENCE diversity at its very best. We ain't there yet. In fact, we're probably on the brink of racial warfare in this country.

How "unfair" or "morally wrong" are quotas and such? In my book, they are far better than the unwritten "laws" within corporate cultures that have kept women, blacks, and other minorities banging their heads against glass ceilings. They are better than the "old boy" network that got Junior into Yale or Harvard with a phone call or two. Favoritism and nepotism and string pulling have been practiced in this culture since its inception. We may not like it but we don't seem to have ever felt the need to split the country a part because of it.

Affirmative action laws are, we can all agree, temporary measures designed to combat many of those unwritten and unfair business practices. Because companies don't like them or because they are just plain inept, these laws may be carried out to the letter but not carried out in spirit. Does that mean we should forget it? Not at all. Hit companies where they hurt. Penalize them or allow more qualified whites to bring suit against them if they hire incompetent minorities. Seriously. The intent of these laws was not to hire incompetents but to hire EQUALLY qualified minorities. Why is that not happening? Let's find the reason, fix it, and when that critical mass is reached and racist slobs have nothing more to bitch about, THEN we won't have the need to use legal means to force racists to hire minorities...

LT

LiteTouch

I was at the edge of the parking lot, trying frantically to make my way through the crowd so I would not be late for class. It didn't matter. I was one of only a handful of white kids that had showed up for school that day. Most of the parents had kept their children home.

When Bus 307 finally rounded the corner and headed up the drive, dozens of frightened black children stared wide-eyed out the bus windows. The crowd pushed and fought and screamed as helmeted policmen did their best to hold them back.

I stood on tip-toes and craned my neck to see what was going on. A policeman issued warnings from a megaphone as the bus stopped in front of the school. The door swung open with a screech and a hiss, and the first little black kid stepped timidly off the bus. "Fucking Nigger!" someone shouted, and I saw the black girl cover her face and duck. Someone had thrown a rock at her.

One by one, the children filed out of the bus as the crowd spat and hurled rocks at them. I remember wondering what the big deal was. The kids were black, that was all. Why did everyone care so much about that?

Most of the children made it safely off the bus and into the building, but some of them needed first aid. A little girl had a chipped tooth. Another had a bloody nose. A little boy's glasses had been broken and a jagged piece of lens had cut his eye.

The police made no arrrests.

Eventually, things got back to normal at my elementary school. Most of the white kids got along fine with the black kids and there was rarely any trouble. After a few years it seemed as though the black kids had always been there. It seemed like racism had gone away.

All these years later, I still like to think that racism is gone. As an idealist I would have wanted to vote for 209. But alone in the booth, I don't think I could have gone through with it. Because each time I am tempted to believe that racism has vanished, I remember the N word-- uttered by various of my friends, neighbors, and co-workers throughout the years-- always taking me by surprise; always reminding me there are those among us who are still racists; will always be racists. No matter how much we hate it. No matter what we do.

I can't be an idealist. I simply cannot believe that all white people will treat all black people fairly without it being required by law. I don't like being a cynic, but I don't have a choice. Any idealist notions I may once have had are gone forever now. They vanished the day I saw grown men and women throwing rocks at little kids.

Kaye Lewis {kflewis@msn.com}

To me, people are just people. Life is what you make of it. No one is "entitled" to anything from the government. Affirmative action is just reverse discrimination. We'd all like to have a hand out from the government, but I don't think anyone deserves it, nor it is in the best interest of the majority of people (remember this is government by majority) for the government to hand out entitlements.

I've lived in places where I was at risk of losing my life because of who I was, my nationality and my religion. I was there voluntarily, because I made a lot of money. I didn't expect the US government or the government of the country I was living in to protect me.

Life's hard. You make your own breaks.

I voted 'yes' on 209.

Steve McClanahan {Doc_Holliday@awwwsome.com}

"handouts" have precious little to do with wanting a fair chance in a place where opportunity is boldly promised to all, but systematically denied to many.

so... i voted "no," because we (and i do mean all of us) still can't seem to truly accept the idea that "people are people" -- as much as we want to and claim to believe this it's still not true for the vast majority of us. i voted "no" because california is more racist than the conservative east coast town i grew up in. and i voted "no" because our government (yep, the very bozos + brilliant minds we put in charge) is in a better position to help us reach that point than we apparently are ourselves.

life IS hard. anything we can do to help each other get through it ok is a step in the right direction.

drue {drue@vivid.com}

Well, we can’t. It’s a fact of life. Even the greasy, blatantly racist bigots will benefit too.

The only people who will NOT benefit from PROP 209 are the people streaming into California, not to mention the rest of the country, at the expense of our culture, economy and American ideals.

Sure I’d have voted for PROP 209. As for the bigots, well, I think there’s a hot seat in hell waiting for them.

Mike Watson {mikew@intworks.com}

"I believe in the pessimism of reason, and the optimism of the will." (Antonio Gramschi)

Politics is a cynical business. Pete Wilson is a bugger. 209 and 187 both turn fear inside out to make it seem like rational behavior. They are not. They are cyncial cons from the minds of people who could give a shit about things like the public good.

Mark Petrakis {spoon@well.com}

I understand the frustration that people feel when they are discriminated against based on their race or sex. Hell it has happened to me and it sucks! But no law is going to change how people feel. It may force them to act slightly differently, but they'll still feel the same way and changing that is the real battle. Laws or coercion, are not the solution. What child says, "OK" when their parents say, "Because I said so?"

I voted for 209 because its language is the language of my ideals.

Lenore {dagny16@aol.com}

But that's no reason to institutionalize inequality of opportunity. It can be no more right to offer minorities opportunities not available to the majority than the opposite. If there is anything good about our culture, it’s that we’ve been raised to believe that we will rise or fall on the merits of our own actions.

Affirmative action has created a climate conducive to self proclaimed victims, provided with a ready excuse for failure. It has justified hatred in bigots, also provided with an excuse. The world has enough people in it adverse to taking responsibility for their lives without codifying the right into law.

Sure, life ain’t fair, and some people are born with a leg up. But you can’t make it right by chopping that leg off and giving it to someone else.

Dan {dziemecki@ilinks.net}

I live and work in New Haven, home of Yale University and many thousands of brutally impoverished blacks, hispanics, and others. My perception is that many people here are struggling vainly to succeed in systems of education, housing, healthcare, and employment where privilege and oppression stand in stark contrast to one another. Despite the emphasis on "politically correct" attitudes and language, inequality of opportunity is still the rule.

Until the will of enlightened and good-hearted people can change this situation, I see no choice but to accept affirmative action--for all its shortcomings--as a necessary means to offset deeply entrenched injustices and to promote equality.

Dan H.

I would love it if there were no barriers, no color, no genders, no nothing, when it came to person-to-person interaction. But, that won't happen for quite some time.

Unfortunately.

Besides, what about Veterans? If we say "no biases ever," does the VA programs, etc. go away? No, they are accepted. (So, basically, the only way white men could possibly be affected negatively with the law was prevented. Sheesh.)

Anthony Shubert {orion@there.net}

And he works for the state. Complains of the need to hire by quotas and losing more qualified candidates, and complains that the turnover increases because of the quota.

"But," I say, "what does turnover have to do with it? Do people actually quit?"

He says, "No, no. We try to help the black guys out. But our job is to take money from passengers and turn it in. All the black employees seem to think they get to keep the money."

"All?" I inquire, raising my eyebrow.

"All, honey. Not a single exception."

I don't categorize people by their skin tone... it goes against my nature. But how do you teach such an instinct to a man who feels he has the proof of experience?

I would vote for the Proposition. So would he. I truly wish it were for the same reason.

Alexis Massie {pandora@pbot.com}

rick {limey@limey.org}

For those of you who might care, I'm Chinese, female, and about as American as I can get. I was born and raised in California. I go to what used to be (in the 70's and 80's) a predominately white high school that is now predominately everything. I sometimes even have that stereotypical "Valley girl, surfer babe," accent....even though I've never ridden a wave in my life. But I don't see how any of this matters.

What I don't understand is how people can say that keeping certain races from certain jobs or colleges is right. That *is* what Affirmative Action does, right? In that case--isn't that just a reversed, inverse racism, discriminatory against whites?

But then again, who's to say that more whites will be qualified for a position than someone else? Skin pigment does not define a person's capacity for knowledge. Please, PLEASE don't get the wrong idea and take a quick offense by thinking that I am discriminating against whites. All I am saying is that I don't understand why all the entries before me seem to take it for granted that whites will naturally do better than minorities. Why is it assumed that Affirmative Action is necessary for minorities to make it in this world? Because the whites will gobble up all of the quality jobs and leave the minorities with the gruntwork? That's shit. That's like saying that minorities can't fend for their own. Minorities are people--whites are people. If whites can make it in this world, so can minorities. They do not need the governmental push that Affirmative Action would give them--all they need is the inherent desire to succeed, because we all know that when someone wants something badly enough, s/he will fight for it.

We all need trials to make us stronger. That's what life is--a series of trials. I didn't believe it, at first, when someone told me, but now I realize that whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Tried by fire and won.

Whites as well as Chinese, and blacks, and Hispanics and everything else I can't think of need to work hard to get where they want to be. There's no rule that says that whites are guaranteed to do better in jobs, or that Chinese will go into engineering, or blah blah blah the stereotypes. We're all individual human beings, not some blob of race, and it is up to the individual to decide how to live his or her life and how to make the most of it.

I do not agree with Affirmative Action, and not just because it would make my acceptance to college more difficult. That has nothing to do with it. It is wrong,it is a malfeasance, it is the far, other end of the racism pendulum, and I cannot agree with something that claims to be new and different when it is really just another side of the same coin. Whether it is heads or tails, a penny is still a penny.

Racism is like the penny: in big chunks it is has effect, but once you break it down to the small copper bits, it's uselessness can't buy you a damn thing.

Melissa {chalcidoni@usa.net}

i would like to think that i am not responsible for my blindness. i would like to think that it's not my fault i can't see it, that it's society's fault. i would like to think everyone could be blind to it, becuase i don't think it's fair. i guess that makes me an idealist.

i voted for prop 209, largely because i am blind, partly because ideally we wouldn't need affirmitive action. ideally, we would all be blind to these issues becuase ideally they wouldn't exist.

i know that these issues do exist; however, is it wrong to believe in utopia?

i suppose as long as the super bowl is celebrated more than Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr's birthday is, that all we can have is hope, all we can do is believe.

either that, or give up hope, and sentence ourselves to continuing turmoil.

Matt Lyon {rainking@surfari.net}

The language of the proposition said that the government could never use any form of preference as the basis of any program.

That's just plain stupid. People have illegal preferences. The governement must be able to counteract those preferences as it sees fit. The best way to do that may be with preference based programs. It's a little like the death penalty (which I'm against), but the government has the option of the tool of ending life to save life. Likewise, it should have the option of using preference programs to eliminate preference.

If there are programs you don't like, argue against the programs. The public dialog should be around actual policy choices, instead of high moral ground. I get confused on moral ground. I know how to solve a problem, though. Racism doesn't go away by itself.

To me 209 came down to idealism vs. realism. The idealist says the ends never justify the means. The realist says "Pray to god and pass the ammunition". I know which side I'm on.

It also comes down to trust in government. If you don't trust government to hold such a heavy hammer as the ability to form preference based programs, then our government is in sad shape indeed. Vote the bastards out.

If you voted for 209, you voted for the idea that there was never a case, or would be a case, where invoking preference would solve a problem. If you believe that, you're not a optimist or a pessimist, you're a fool.

-brianb

brianb {brian@bulkowski.org}

I also like to think I'm a realist, a pragmatist.

I voted NO on Prop 209.

Anyone who voted YES on Prop 209 for idealistic reasons is a fool. Idealism that's not grounded in reality is harmful. Don't give me "what should be"--deal with things as they are.

And as they are, we live in a racist (and sexist, etc.) society. And any effort to correct past injustices, to give those who are de facto down-trodden a better chance, is welcome.

Voting for 209 on "color-blind" grounds is foolish. It would make sense if we lived in color-blind society--but then, if we lived in a color-blind society, we wouldn't need programs like Affirmative Action.

We don't live in a color-blind society. We're not going to be living in a color-blind society any time soon. Deal with that reality, and make choices based on the way things are.

Peter Merholz {peterme@studioarchetype.com}

Andrew Chaikin {housejack@aol.com}

People say that there should be no preferences, based on race, gender etc. I agree. But the reality we live in isn't like that.

I used to be in track and field. For long runs, the runners on the outside track were given a lead to make up for the fact that their lanes were longer. It equalized the lanes.

This is what Affirmative Action (however poorly it has been implimented) was designed to do. It makes up for the fact that some in this society start out in the inside track, those being us white guys.

People forget that Jim Crow, the American version of Apartheid, ended only 32 years. That's not a lot of time to change. Without restitution, Black people will be grandfathered out of society.

White folks ignore the fact that seniority means that Black workers will be laid off prior to white workers, since Black people weren't being hired prior to Affirmative Action. No one talks about legacies, the policy of automatic acceptance by schools the children of almuni. 97% of corporate CEOs are white men. 93% of university professors are white men. Black people make up at least 12% of the population, yet have 1% of the Senators, and so on.

Go on, tell me how Affirmative Action is keeping me back.

Marc Luzietti {mluziett@hawk.depaul.edu}

The reason I did is simple. It works FOR preferences. The ridiculous assumption behind most arguments in favor of the proposition is that it will end preferences since affirmative action adds preferences to an otherwise meritocratic society. That's not true. 209 INSTITUTIONALIZES preferences. We live in a society with white affirmative action every day. Affirtmative action just works against that to balance things out.

For every minority hired under affirmative action who is incompetent, I will give you twenty incompetent white workers hired based on race. It's just that no one holds them up as a representative of their race.

So, I am an idealist to vote against it. As a white male, I know the preferences white males receive dwarf any affirmative action program. And further, they are no quotas under affirmative action. Quotas have been illegal since Bakke.

Next time you start to feel oppressed as a white male, consider the fact that maybe, just maybe you're getting more affirmative action than anyone else. You just haven't noticed.

Brendan Nyhan {bnyhan1@swarthmore.edu}

Alice L. Carroll {L8L8L8L8L8@aol.com}

There is a sentiment here (Hawai'i) amongst many locals, that white people should get off of our land. In elementary school, I'd get picked on the other kids because I wasn't Asian enough or Hawaiian enough. Being queer is only icing on the cake...I get it from all sides now.

In an ideal world, where people can put aside perceptions and simply focus on an individual, I would have voted "yes" on 209. However, America is ruled by the tyranny of the stupid, and no matter how much I think race, gender, color, sexual preference, age, or religon wouldn't matter to me if I was hiring someone, I don't think most people are capable of that kind of suspension of pre-judgement. Therefore, I would have to vote "no" on 209.

Hellboy {hellboy808@aol.com}

I'd have voted YES.

Rich {rschmidt@olivet.edu}

The danger of Prop 209 is that it asserts the white experience as THE normative experience. In a state like California, where whites will soon be the -minority-, to institutionalize such views is to forcibly deny people of color the opportunities that we have the luxury to take for granted. I don't know about you, but these kind of exclusionary tactics reek of racism to me.

I would have voted NO on Prop 209, because I refuse to indulge in hate. In the words of the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.,

"We must never be bitter.

If we indulge in hate, the new order will only be the old order.

We must meet hate with love, physical force with soul force."

-- May 17th, 1957

Noah {Noah_Raford@brown.edu}

ol' pete is on about the whole affirmative action thing for the same reasons he's on about the whole immigration thing - to get people behind an array of issues that offer opportunities for cheap shots and easy sloganeering and to deflect everyone's attention from the fact that over a decade of conservative reagan-style governorship (remember duekmajian?) have delivered on none of their promises.

but here's the other thing about racism. you can't possibly think clearly about it unless you are willing to confront your own innate xenophobia. people who call out for a color-blind society and claim not to see color and race themselves are lying to themselves and everyone else. it is the compelling power of this lie that makes otherwise sensible people go on about such concepts as "inverse discrimination" and the like.

of course 209 and its ilk deserve to go down to an ignominious defeat - if not at the polls, then in the courts - and they deserve to go down exactly because under the skin we all have the same complicated, volatile mix of hatred and compassion. there are no simple solutions to our humanity. beware of politicians offering them.

zachary {zachary@sirius.com}

supporters feel like good guys?

I can tell you about its effect. It helps to

make new bigots when it keeps someone from getting the job, or getting into the college. Or, maybe more often, when someone mistakenly thinks that affirmative action was to blame for their setback.

I don't think affirmative action has ever hurt me, but I can feel for the kid who wanted to be a fireman all his life and can't do it because he's white, and male. He is not the bigot......yet.

sue22 {suetate@hotmail.com}

adder

As many people ahead of me have stated, idealism not grounded in realism is dangerous.

I am equal parts idealist and cynic. I don't know if my hopes for the world will be realized in my lifetime, but I'll fight for it for as long as I'm here.

Nicole {noizangl@cycor.ca}

I VOTED!

---------

I felt lousy about it, but I knew I would either way.

My ideals wanted a repeal of any racial consideration too. Besides being wrong, racism is stupid. I still do not understand why my generation can be so opposite our grandparents in this regard.

My first serious exposure to racism (also about age 5) was very vivid. It permanently deteriorated my respect for my grandmother.

I may have voted to continue Equal Opportunity policy, but I'm still an idealist.

WE JUST MUST DO A BETTER JOB THAN OUR GRANDPARENTS DID.

Rich Mealey {rmealey@home.com}

the truth is whoever hold the power holds the key..the legals do their mumbo jumbo..and the things that happened in the past are forgotten..the forcible removal of aboriginal children from their mothers as a conscious and premeditated effort to undermine the strength of them as people..i am still learning about the way things happen in other places..and certainly the american experience has an effect on the way indigenous australians are perceived..the decisions you make there dont just affect you..they have implications in the way all minority groups around the globe..big, important decisions for sure!

vesna {mcgregov@zonk.geko.net.au}

Manda {conner@sanasys.com}

I'M AN EIGHTTEEN YEAR OLD MALE, WITCH DOES MATTER. i LIVE IN A HISPANIC NIEHBORHOOD. I, UNLIKE A LOT OF WHITE MALES MY AGE IN BEUTIFUL santabarbara, cA. RESPECT EVERY ONE AS INDIVIDUALS, NO MATTER WHAT THIER RACE IS OR sexUAL PREFERANCES. HUMANs ARE humanS, SOME ARE DIFFERaNT THEN OTHERS THATS o.K. 420

OF COARSE I ADORE reFeR, i'm POOR AND SO ARE A LOT OF OUR FELLOW AMERICANS. wE NEEED TO STOp ALL THIS RACIAL TENTION. pEOPLE ARE LEARNINGi DID i USED TO BE PREDJUDISE UTNIL I REALIZED ITS JUST ANGER, ITS JUST UNNESISSARY DRAMA WHY! iT MAKES NO SENSE TO BE NEGATIVE. i'V BE-420-EN CALLED CRACKER, HONKEY, WHITE BOY, WHITE TRASH DIRTY HIPPY. BUT THATS o.K. I DONT CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE CLASSIFY ME AS, I KNOW WHAT I AM, I"M A YOUNG WHITE MALE WITH NOTHING, ACCEPT FOR THE PEOPLE AROUND ME BLACK WHITE ASIAN MEXICAN

IT DOSNT REALY MATTER, rIGhT

i WAS IN MINNEAPOLIS MINNASOTA FOR TWO YEARS SOUTH MPLS. WAS WHERE I LIVED IN A AFRICAN AMERICAN AREA IvE NEVER MET SOOOO MANY ANGRY BLACK PEOPLE IN MY LIFE SHOOTIN ANY THING THAT THEY DONT LIKE I FELT LIKE A MINORITY AND I WAS. I WAS THE ONLY PERSON THAT LOVED EVERY BODY. THERE IS SO MUCH RACIAL TENTION IN THE WORLD. ALL I TAKES IS A LITTLE GANJA SMOKE A DOOBIE WITH YOUR BLACK NIEHBOR AND HE,LL MOST LIKELY SMOKE ONE WITH YOU BUT IF YOU CALL HIM A NIGGER WEEL YOU BETTER EXPECT RETALLIATION. rESPECT IS THE KEY TO (420) HAPPINESS. IF YOU DONT SMOKE WEED ALL RESPECT TO YOU YOURE YOUR OWN SELF YOU PROBABLY ALLREADY KNOW ALL THIS SHIT Im SAYING SO ILL sHuTT Up NOw I DONT BELIVE IN ANY RELIGION EXCEPT PEACE AMONGST ALL HUmans.

wRITTEN by: A HOMELESS WHITE mALE WITH NO EDUCATION A.K.A. CASK, THC IN SB UNTIL NEXT TIME, PEACE OUT TO THE AMERICAN RACE, THERES ONLY ONE

eDGARE e NEWMAN

Tray {thoma011@csusm.edu}

No One, again

Then again, I have to agree with the author. What a mess we've made where the same intentions, at the surface at least, on both sides, have become a hotly contested issue.

I guess it's all a matter of who is pulling the strings. History seems to tell us to be cynical, but idealism wants to belive that we've advanced enough to handle some sort of responsibilty.

Have we?

Joshua Bruce {jbruce@polymail.calpoly.edu}

the reality portrayed by greg {vector@netgate.net} [above] is a typical relating of this situation; one which clarifies for me why we are still mired in 'the race problem' in this country: i think by basing his understanding of affirmative action issues on the tiny, myopic (sorry, considering his employment by an optic company, i just couldn't resist) version of affirmative action that his own personal experience affords, he creates only a partial reality for us. And that i contend is the CRUX of this issue:

we all have our own (usually narrow) perspective of racial interaction in society (or of anything, really); and when considered as separate small pieces of ONE puzzle (that is us and who we are and why), one cannot help but discover the flaw in the ointment...by setting up our individual 'belief systems', which accord ONLY with our LIMITED self experience, we are hardly being very honest with ourselves and certainly not with anybody else. to wit: what about all the lesser qualified, YET FULLY CAPABLE, "minorities" who haven't had the pleasure of gregs workplace acquaintance?? would there not be even a few of sufficient caliber to merit gregs approval?? i guess so...

also, i must say, greg would (hopefully) no doubt be equally disturbed had the offending incompetent co-workers been white christian males.  has greg NEVER experienced such a thing as an incompetent white person?

as i go through my life, i will TRY not to let my own personal and miniscule experience jade myself into a stony apparition of my former (original and unbiased and free) self, lest i come to understand that everything i see, hear, touch, smell, and taste is EVERYTHING that is.

both cynic and idealist~
scott richie
winky3@webbnet.com
http://www.webbnet.com/~winky3

scott richie {winky3@webbnet.com}

I wish I was the grounds,

for 50 million hands upraised and opened towards the sky.

I wish I was a silhouette,

someone who waited for me

I wish I was as fortunate,

as fortunate as me.

I wish I was a messenger and all the news was good.

I wish I was the full moon shining off a Camero's hood.

__

I wish a lot of things, but that doesn't make them happen.

Eliminating affirmative action doesn't mean racism will magically disappear along with the programs.

Sure I wish. But I'm not a fool. And I'm not blind either. To either side.

Give it time.

Kristoff {heart.mind.soul@usa.net}

I'm a cynical idealist, or an idealistic cynic. I don't know if I could ever be just one or the other. I am a black woman who has never personally benefited from Affirmative Action, but that in no way means I would ever have voted in favor of Prop. 209.

A level playing field does not exist (that applies to race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, and on). If you have any doubts about it, step into the shoes of a black, gay or disabled person for a day.

We all have our predjudices, and I'm trying like hell to get rid of mine, but I have to admit that I'm having a hard time with the ignorance that permiates the reasoning of many.

I hope I made even a little sense.

Leslie {MaxGirl@runawaytrain.org}

School loans, grants, scholarships, federal aid, state aid, you name it and there are certain qualifications you'll need to meet. So whoever can, gets the money and goes to the school they want, they graduate on time, they find a good job because of their degree, and later on they set up a scholarship fund for someone just like them. How many of you have seen this: "available for female student of french american descent, named marie, who had a female family member serve in the war of 1812" okay so maybe not that exactly. What needs to happen is the realization that we are all in this together. There are too many other things to worry about than whether the person sitting in the chair next to you at work is a black female. Let her be. Do your job.

My first boyfriend was of Haitian descent. About two weeks into the relationship, my Polish-Catholic grandmother called me up and said "So, I hear you are dating a black boy", and I thought to myself, well, yeah, I guess I am. See it never really dawned on me that it mattered. because it wasn't what I would consider a qualifying factor. He made me laugh, and smile and he was a friend, and I loved him. And what hit me were the next words out of her mouth, "Well, I want to tell you something. Until you take that paintbrush of yours, and paint him white, he will never be allowed in my house". And that one sentence took my breath away. Even after four years of being my boyfriend, she was still asking me whether I had met a "nice white boy" yet. Never to his face, because it doesn't always work that way. A lot of it was behind the scenes. At first I argued extensively with her, and after a while I got tired of it. I realized I couldn't change her, and it was her turn to realize nothing she could say would change my mind.

You cannot change how someone else feels, only they can, and then, only when they are ready. But you can help. Put yourself in their shoes, for one minute, one day. How would you feel?

elee

I have seen some of the world but in the back of my thoughts I realize that I am little.

As I look around at the people who surround me i see the world. It is here where I am a minority, where others look differently, or at least I thought. I have learned a lot from the people on my side.

Each day is more of a journey than i ever thought. Living next to a city that does not sleep I observe the world.

Am I a cynic or an idealist, I do not know, but I am alive in this world and you are my friend!

Jared {wildchyld82@hotmail.com}

The problem with prop. 209 is a means-ends problem -- the end that we hope for is a society blind to differences of gender, color, and ethnicity. The difficulty is that the means by which we achieve this end of cultural colorblindness may well require us to pay close attention to issues of racial and cultural difference.

The argument is then made that we, as a society, betray our idealistic hopes for the future by stooping to pragmatic and realistic standards now. This is political rhetoric, though, because even though affirmative action does in many senses betray the spirit of civil rights, by dismantling affirmative action we further entrench systems of structural and institutional racism. By propping up a status quo where minorities and women have far fewer and worse opportunities for advancement in the workplace, we betray the spirit of Martin Luther King's dream far more than affirmative action ever did. By adopting an idealistic stance now through removing affirmative action, we condemn the future vision of a colorblind society.

The utter irony of prop. 209 is that so many of the proponents who call for a colorblind society and invoke the memory of Dr. King are actually racists and bigots.

Colin {evansco1@cps.msu.edu}

If you print this page you end up with 25 pages of commentary. I read every page and found the sentence:

>If you voted for 209, you voted for the idea that there was never

>a case, or would be a case, where invoking preference would solve

>a problem.

more valuable than the rest of the document.

>I get confused on moral ground. I know how to solve a problem, though.

I emphatically agree. Or at least I would emphatically agree if I was more personally energetic regarding this issue. I suppose "I agree" might be more accurate.

When I am motivated to change something I solve the problem first and then wax nostalgic / philosophic later.

Jay Hannah {jhannah1@home.net}

Colorblinders are exactly what this world needs. There's this natural law called survival of the fittest. Who ever is the most qualified should get the spot, no matter what race they are or what background they have, with no privleges for anyone. This country always wants to get something for nothing. Let's earn our place for a change.

Laura

DeeAnna {QuietPlume@aol.com}

In those younger years of political activity, I believed we could make the world a better place. And I also believed in the basic intelligence of human beings.

I was an idealist.

Then the [small, idealistic] party I usded to be a member of got into parliament, and then into a coalition government.

The cynic in me snickered when former idealists, now deputies, denied their activist past and started calling for moderation og pragmatism.

And I've met too many "ordinary people", since then. I've been reminded too often that, basically, human beings are tool-using dogs.

Civilization is the accomplishment of a few intelligent individuals working under pressure.

Democracy is the rule of the power-hungry made legitimate by the votes of idiots.

Still, I would have voted NO on the 209. The successfull power-hungry are less prone to be idiots. With a touch of idealism, they might even be able to teach the idiots a lesson.

yeah, I'm a cynic

Eirik {eirik@citlembik.com.tr}

Politicians just love to pretend. They adore making rules. They enjoy poking their ignorant, stuffy, 3-piece-suited asses into our lives. They're more blind than any of us. They don't see racism. All they see is The Bad White People. And if that's not what they see, they see The Bad Black People, or they see The Bad Latinos, or whatever other race you can think of. And they strive, and they strive, and they strive to make all the rules they can against The Bad Whatevers -- so things can be "equal". So things can be "fair." Who cares what's real? As long as we have a solid system, and as long as we have rules, rules, rules, then we can shift the blame away from us and to the people themselves. They're so fake. They're so blind. So are we.

I'm too young to vote. And I'm glad.

zora {pulse_theory@hotmail.com}

My attitute towards Affirmative Action, I believe, is like that of many minorities. We believe the country still needs a policy designed to ensure that no one is unfairly discriminated against and that everyone gets a fair shake. But we hate the idea that we've gotten preferential treatment or something.

I don't think I've gotten preferential treatment now. I've had people tell me that, as a black woman, I have it easy. But that's not true! It's hard being the minority. When you're the only "one", you become a sort of representative for your group, responsible for either fulfilling or challenging the negative stereotypes the majority group has formed. That's a lot of pressure to handle, believe me! I know I'm straying off the topic, but I just wanted to clear up the common misconception that being a minority is easy or advantagous. Imagine being the only black female in a class of white males and trying to find someone to study with. It ain't easy!

I would not vote for Proposition 209 because I don't think this country is healed from racist ideology and discriminatory acts. Do I think Affirmative Action has oppressed white males in the same way that Jim Crowe Laws did to black people? NO!! When Congress, boards of trustees, city councils, and other major bodies of leadership begin to better reflect the diversity of this country, then maybe it will be time to start talking about dismantling Affirmative Action.

My final comment is that it was just a few decades ago when "race mingling" was declared illegal in the law books. We've come a long way to reaching the promised land, but we've got a while to travel before unbuckling our safety belts.

tish {tishrobertson@hotmail.com}

I dated a Vietnam boy for a couple of months. I thought he was the greatest. He was really senstive to the looks people were given us, I just thought he was peranoid. Than one night we went to a club with a group of his Vietnam friends. When we got to the door, the bouncer wouldn't let him or his friends in but he looked at me and said I could go right in. I was amazed. I've never wittnessed such out right racism before. The bouncer justified his actions by saying that they were having problems with racial fights and weren't letting any asians in. My boyfriend took it very well and just walked away. I wanted to rip the bouncers head off or, at the very least, report him to some sort of authorty. My boyfriend held me back. That was the night my idealistic world shattered.

To say I'm now a cynic would be putting it mildly.

C. {corinne@airtime.ca}

i suppose i could take up space here telling stories of the injustices that were and still are practice by everyone there....but why?...this is something that i think needs to be felt first hand otherwise all these well meaning so idealistic people would have known what that law was all about....and i feel for these people but i also fear these people because they have an ideal that is not grounded in reality....once you have experienced racism against yourself and family you will never believe the lies of freedom for all and you can do whatever you can with what you are....i know that there are alot of people who rise above to claim their part....but i have to wonder at what expense...and this is in no way a put down on their ambitions.

mainly what i want to say is look deeper,,,open your minds and try to feel what it is like to not be white....to have school friends tell you at a early age that "we don't think of you that way,,,you are different"....those few words will change your life no matter what age you are.

i just want to add that i found it interesting that someone from england said they would vote for this law....now if that isn't history speaking.....

asora porti

If we REALLY want to get to the utopian point of non-racism, & equal civil rights, in this society, we need to stop paying so much attention to our own races, and how racism is holding us back! Instead, as a society, if we stopped believing it is someone else's responsibility to make everything fair for us, we could go a long way in accomplishing this end. First, & foremost we are human! That's it, human, on a planet among 6 billion other humans!

As for our individual cultural, and racial beliefs & customs, that should be just that, a personal following, not a means to manipulate society, through guilt. If we as a society are REALLY striving to make all things fair and equal for all beings, then we should give up now! It is never going to happen, why you ask, again, it's because we are humans trying to exist on a harsh and unfair planet.

I feel that Affirmative Action in and of itself is a form a racism! I don't feel that the spirit of "all men are created equal" is being fully lived upto by racist quotas, just so we can have a measurable quantity, in order to prove that we are making strides on Civil/Equal rights!

I myself, being homosexual, have been discriminated against, but have learned that other's ignorance should not be an excuse for me to not to acheive! Friends of mine, whom have come from varied back grounds, and varied races, have had to make their own way in life and through perseverance and hard work, and a refusal to fall into self-pity, they have done well!

I am also fed up with militant minorities that have this feeble concept that minorities cannot be racist! Racism, as defined by Webster, is a racial prejudice or discrimination, which is what Affirmative Action prescribes. We will not hire, or allow admittance of white males, unless we have X number of minorities first, regardless of which is better qualified!

I feel this is just a symptom of the larger problem in this country which is apathy, and refusal to take responsibility for self, and the choices that self makes. We as a society are way too eager to point our fingers at a scapegoat instead of looking at ourselves to see how we could have changed, better prepared, or handled a situation. To make a way too simple reference, it is like the lady who spilled coffee on herself in her car, and then sued McDonalds for her stupidity! I feel as though a lot of minorities use racism as an excuse to become or remain apathetic about their plight.

Do not get me wrong, I believe racism exists. I believe that racism does create a difficult and sometimes perceivably impossible barrier to hurdle. I also believe that racism will always exist as long as ignorance exists. Affirmative Action has been in place for a number of years now, has it helped eliminate racism? No, or else we would not be discussing it now! So, it comes back to us, as individuals, to educate ourselves, so that we can take responsibility for self, & be prepared to handle other's ignorance, as well as our own.

In closing I would have to say I am a radical idealist = )

Johnathon {Monkeyboiy@yahoo.com}

rosa

Rascism blows. End of story

John {bachalon}

kurt {nudnik@panda.uiowa.edu}

yana {yanaoshi@hotmail.com}

affirmative action is nothing more than reverse discrimination.. and two wrongs do NOT make a right.

in a year, i will be filling out countless college applications, desperately trying to be accepted into an educational program with SOME level of financial aid. i am enrolled in the advanced placement college level courses at my high school, i maintain a 4.625 gpa, i have oodles of service hours and extra-curricular activities, and i plan to recieve a doctorate in psychology and go on to change the world.. or so says the idealist in me.

the cynic in me realizes that when i apply for acceptance/financial aid, i will probably be shot down by a minority student with a lower gpa than me, less service hours, and hardly any future plans.

i'm not a bigot.

i admit there have been, are, and will be plenty of minorities that surpass me academically. i am not, by any means, superior.. to anyone.

however, i do realize that i will be rejected in favor of a minority student just so that particular college or organization can fufill their quota.. and it disgusts me.

i filled out my Federal Application For Student Aid form the other day.. and i felt sick. i'm white, middle-class (enough to live comfortably, but by no means enough to afford 8 yrs at university), i don't have a terminal illness, and my parents are still married. guess that means i'm not getting through college.

in about 8 years, i will graduate with a doctorate and attempt to land myself a job. and the cynic in me knows that i will be rejected in favor of a less-qualified minority. i'd love to be rejected in favor of a more-qualified minority. i'm sure that will happen in the future, as well.

but the cynic in me AND the idealist in me would vote for 209. screw society. being color-blind has to start somewhere.

ardere {dreamqueen@crosswinds.net}

Now, Affirmative Action was important in order to get racial integration on the road. In order to allow minorities into the educational system, legislation was neccessary. The same was neccessary to raise the percentage of minority workers with jobs that paid beyond the minimum wage.

However, California has reached a point now where minorities are, at least to some extent, integrated. Not enough, mind you. Alot of work still remains. However, at this point, qualified workers are being bypassed for less qualified minority workers. Now. Think about that:

Qualified workers.

Being bypassed for less qualified workers.

Because of their race.

Isn't this precisely what Affirmative Action was supposed to prevent? This isn't preventing rascism. This is rascism.

The idea that people who have been working hard in order to achieve a marketable skill, only to be bypassed for their race makes me sick. It makes everyone sick. It made people sick when it happened in South Africa under Apartheid, and it should make people sick now. Whether it happens to black or white people.

The only way people can get to see racial integration as a positive thing is if it really is. If they are losing jobs that they should be getting, this will only make people more inclined towards rascism, and sooner or later, out-and-out rascism may rear it's ugly head once more. We must allow people to let go of the race issue entirely and to truly want integration.

Now, as I said earlier, a lot of work still remains. What is important now that 209 has passed is that people keep crying out whenever unfairnesses are committed. Thanks to such action, rascism is declining. Sooner or later, we will get to a point where people will just be people, and jobs will just be jobs.

I am an idealist. But it doesn't take idealism to see that voting yes would have been the right decision. No doubt many people voted yes for the wrong reasons, and that is a shame. Now we must take care to see that they don't get to destroy the work that Affirmative Action did.

-Martin-

Martin Grüner Larsen {martingl@hotmail.com}

Max Klapsch

why? it's just not done.

i think the biggest part of 209 is people coming face to face with reality. alot of us say now that "oh, racism isn't a problem now" or "we've improved" on that social level and "we've bridged the gap."

no we haven't.

it may be that i'm from the south but it reaks here. you can smell the racism. and it's not just geared from white to different colors. it's the other way around as well. and whether you know it or not, it's like this everywhere.

truthfully, we are still in the shadows of dr. king. and we aren't moving much of anywhere.

april nicole {faeriesan@hotmail.com}

I would vote yes for Proposition 209. I believe that the society is still not reaching the "perfect" level where everyone, minorities and majorities, are at the same level in jobs, education, or civil rights. However, it had improve a great deal already under numerous civil right bills, protests, and the afirmative actions. Afirmative actions in the past had done their job as providing the opportunitities for all-qualified poor and middle-class people. Unfortunately, afirmtive action is being misuse nowaday as to provide opportunitities to those of certain race and sex. Ending afirmative action in college admission and jobs would provide a equal ground for competition. We shouldn't keep reminding ourselves that we have to repay a certain group because of something happened hundreds of years ago that was done by our ancestors not us of today. Of course we can't erase the pain and anger but we shouldn't keep living in that shadows everyday and wait for charity case or repay. There will never be an end to this racism if we keep reminding ourselves someone owe someone and that someone have to repay that someone. In order to compete with other countries in any field, we need the qualify, best people there is to do the research or etc. in our country not someone who fits the racial quotas. Ending racial-consicous program will strive everyone to work harder and gain what they deserve and be happy about it.

Connie

diablojig {diablojig@hotmail.com}

good intentions entail whole lot more responsibilities than cynical attitudes.

'cause the world is circling in the law of vice. to reverse its natural order, we need to try double, triple efforts. just ignoring it isn't enough.

to be a genuine idealist, one should be a real a blindfolded activist, ironically. i don't know whether it's worthy or not.

for me? i would oppose the proposal 209.

people translate the phenomena whatever they want to see and make use of them, anyway.

why should i make worthless voice?

pax {anachiapax@hotmail.com}

Second, (regarding 'the looks') never let the perceptions of others define or control what you do.

I'd have voted for 209.

Greg Wolkins {greg@catscape.com}

Drew {sned111@aol.com}

I'm constantly amazed by people who call themselves pragmatic. Pragmatism means dealing with reality, or in my mind, with what works. I think that when we look at afirmative action programs, the best question to ask is - does it work?

For so many of the reasons that have already been discussed here, I think that it does not. The question I ask is this: if afirmative action is intended to end racial preference, how would we ever know that it did? What would that look like exactly? Would 50% of minorities successfully graduating college be the watermark? 90%? 200%? How about 100% of the general population? Wouldn't that be nice, if none of us ever excelled at anything because we all got a perfectly fair shake? My problem is that there is no clear goal for these programs, just an open-ended guilt applied to "the majority" members of society for, what I believe to be, human nature.

I also don't particularly appreciate the government thinking for me. I'll hire anyone I damn well please, and I'll fire anyone I damn well please. If I neglect to hire the best candidate, well, that's just my loss isn't it? It means the competition down the street will hire that person, they'll produce a bigger or better or faster product, and my business will suffer as a result.

That's how human nature works. As long as government can't legislate thought, it can't legislate racial preference. Bigots were bigots during afirmative action, they'll be bigots till the end of time. We don't need to spank them for it, they get slapped in the ass by the world.

Would I have voted for prop 209? No.

Not because I think we should keep afirmative action on life support, but because it's not my job to tell my neighbor how to think. Laws are supposed to protect us from ACTIONS. Not from thoughts, and not from ourselves.

The problem isn't with the "eliminating all racial and gender preferences" language. It's with the "all men are created equal" language. I mean honestly, when was the last time you presented a plausable explanation of how the universe was created? One that jives with the laws of physics and thermodynamics? Oh, you mean you haven't done that yet? Well Stephen Hawking has - it's called the pea instantation theory. It means that he is VASTLY superior to you and me in intellect. But at the same time, I betcha you could kick his ass. We're not equal. We're not the same. Fair is a relative term.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and the people who tell you that three lefts do are imbiciles.

My thanks to Derek, and to everyone here making my brain wake up again.

Lisa {lkw76@hotmail.com}

The women went out, and when they came back and were asked how they felt people react--they all percieved discomfort and embarassment on the part of the people they were talking to.

Now... I don't know why one of these women didn't catch a glimpse of their face in a store window or whatnot, but regardless...

I believe in racism, I know it exists. I also know that if you go through life thinking people are staring at you, even more people will stare. I know because I've seen those interracial couples. The ones I notice aren't the ones that just go about their business, but the ones that are always glancing around like they're doing something wrong, or like everyone's watching them.

I'm not saying that everyone is like this, or that it's primarily a racial thing. But I do know that if a black, asian, disabled, or gay person goes into a job interview or college interview with a chip on their shoulder they're not going to get hired unless there is affirmative action. And while I believe that they SHOULDN'T be hired on this alone, I do believe that it's necessary.

I would never vote to do away with affirmative action.

-Sara

sara {neuroticia@neuroticia.net}